Colin:
Bring in Lisa. Now, Lisa Maynard-Atem, who's an entrepreneur, co-founder of the Black United Representation Network. Yes, great acronym BURN, which I love. I wanna pick up on hearing the same misconceptions time and time again, which I'm sure, Lisa, happens to you week in week out, but just explain to us, you, you, the, the, the goal of, and aim and, and I suppose your day-to-day, what you speak to in, in the workplace.

Lisa:
So, um, the Black United Representation Network, uh, BURN, was set up to address, um, economic and social empowerment of the Black Community in the North of England and, uh, one of our key focuses is leadership, and for me, this is quite, um, this is quite close to my heart because as a child, I traveled a lot. So, I was born in this country, I left when I was about a year old and I didn't come back till I was 10 and that was because of my Dad's work. Um, my Dad was... Because when I was young, back in the eighties, it was very rare that you saw Black people in leadership roles and my Dad was one of those people who would be, who did actually have a seat around various tables and one of the things he would do is he would always take me to his meetings, even though I was very young, and I didn't really fully appreciate what was going on, he was very keen for me to understand and to see that I could sit at those tables too, and there were certain things always stood out to me, but the main thing always was that whenever I went to the, whenever I got exposed to that environment, we were usually the only two Black people around the table and I just grew up with this, with that constantly on my mind and also we lived in Cameroon where my dad is from originally and the thing that was really interesting there, Colin, was that there, I was just another person because everybody was Black. Whereas here I'm a Black person. So that was quite interesting as well.

And as I got older and got into my career, I got into corporate roles and corporate organizations, and again, I was very fortunate to have access to certain tables and I never saw anybody around these tables, hardly ever that looked like me. So when we got together [00:02:00] back in 2020 to set up BURN, one of our key, um, because there were nine founders altogether, one of our key, um, focuses was leadership. So I'm really, really passionate about diversity at the top tables, because if you think about it, the top tables are where all the decisions are made. So if there are, there are decisions are being made there, we need to ensure that those decisions will be, will impact everybody equally and fairly and I think it's impossible when a seat when a table is made up of one group of people. I think it's very, very difficult for that group of people to make decisions that will fairly impact everyone in the, everyone in various communities, because we all have different lived experiences and if you haven't shared in those experiences, it's very difficult for you to understand where certain communities are coming from and therefore, I do think that that impact can negatively impact decisions that are made. 

So for me, it's about actually, I want to see more people around the table that look like me. And as, as a woman, um, I can remember when I was growing up and we lived in New York, my mother used to work a lot from home and the reason for that was because sometimes when she went for job interviews, she was turned away and even told that they don't hire Blacks. So she used to work from home because it was just a lot easier because the thing is, if she did a telephone interview, they're not going to see the colour of her skin, so it's more, there was a greater chance of her securing, securing work. So, and obviously I saw all of this growing up, so for me, it's really, it was really important for me when I got older to make sure that I'm visible and that other people that look like me can, can see me in those kind of lofty positions and know that they can achieve that too, and also I have a younger sister, so it was really important for my sister Louise to see me occupying certain spaces and know that she can do it too if she wants to. So that's really, it's quite, it's a very, very personal thing for me. But, even now, if we look at the Black community, if you look at various industries, we are not really, we're still not very well represented at those top tables and that really, really needs to change.

Colin:
It's, it's not just a numbers game. Talk to me about what is actually being seen and heard, what that actually means within the corporate world, the top table, absolutely. So, so that that's what I mean about it not being a numbers game. If somebody says. We had it in Northern Ireland, by the way, we, we, we had it with fair employment in terms of Protestant and Catholic, and I remember an interview I did with someone as a young journalist and they said, well, what if everyone's religion's the same, they come in to clean and work at the most junior level, and then what if every one of the other religion are in the boardroom?

Well, that, that, that's not parity, so, so I'm a hundred percent on that page, but also, if I could get you to talk a bit more about being seen and heard, what that actually means. It's not just about eyes and ears and not just about numbers, right?

Lisa:
No, I think for me, that kind of see me, be me piece is really, really important.

Um, cause when I was growing up, I'll be completely honest, Colin, I didn't see a lot of women. I didn't see anybody that looked like me occupying the spaces that I now occupy, I never saw, I, if I think back, cause I've been working since I was 16, I'm 45 now, I never saw anyone that looked like me occupying the roles and the kind of jobs that I've had. You know, I saw the obvious people like Oprah Winfrey, who was obviously a very big heroine of mine, but it was very few and far between and I do think, you know, even now I had this, I had a situation the other day where I walked into a meeting room and I saw two other Black people and I was really excited and it's, in one way, it was great to see them, on the other hand, it's quite sad as well that that's still the case. That, you know, you still, it's still not the norm and you know, it's really interesting when I have conversations with people who challenge organizations like BURN and who challenge things like Black History Month and things like that and the thing is, yeah, these things shouldn't exist, but the reality is because we're not all represented equally and fairly, until, until everything, until equality and equity becomes the norm, these things have to continue to exist. Because, the reality is, you know, you'll hear that argument a lot where people say "all lives matter". All lives should matter, but in the cold light of day, that's not the reality. So that's why you need things like Black History Month, you need Black Lives Matter, you need LGBTQIA plus organizations supporting that community. The reason we still have these things in the 21st century is because it's still the exception and it's not the norm for everybody to live equally and fairly.

Colin:
When, when you go in, Lisa, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I read in your website and stuff of going in to talk to organizations and talk to big companies, you're a great public speaker.

I, I'm interested to know, and we will get onto your heroes in just a second, I'm interested to hear what are those regular things that you hear? We, we touched on this slightly with Alice. And immediately thought I must, must, must, must ask Lisa about this. I mean, I, I wanna preempt it by saying one of the things that I think I would've said by the way, 20 years ago, thinking I was the absolute high and mighty when I said I don't see colour, I don't see race and then of course you evolve and you, you learn that you absolutely as a white man need to see race, especially the race of, of a woman of colour and you have, you have to understand as much as you can about what that means. I'd imagine that's quite, quite high up the list of somebody who feels like they are, um, not part of the problem, if that's the right way to say it, just an interest of having an open conversation. People's views are different, but what are those things you hear? You sort of quite regularly that might make you want to run to the hills, but you stand there and you, you calmly talk it out.

Lisa:
I think that the biggest one for me, which I still hear and it does get under my skin is that we are difficult to reach, you know, I've had quite a lot of conversations with organizations and individuals says, Oh, you know, we find that the Black community are difficult to reach and my argument is, well, I'm stood here, so you found me, you know, and we live in quite a diverse region and obviously the Black community here where I am is quite prominent. So, this whole idea of "we're difficult to reach", to be perfectly honest, Colin, is just nonsense. There are incredibly talented Black people out there who are very, like me, are very visible and very easy to reach and it's things like that, or, you know, people will challenge the idea of white privilege and the reality is it does exist. I know that's not a comfortable thing for a lot of people, but white privilege does exist.

You know, I, as a Black woman will never enjoy the privilege that a white man has and that's just how it is and I know that's not a comfortable thing for people, but it is a thing. You know, I still will walk into a shop calling and I still get followed around. You know, it's happened to me quite a few times recently where I've been paying for things in the supermarket. They've seen me paying for things and they still stop me, stop me at the door to check my bag, even though I have a receipt in my hand. You know, it's things like that. It's like, you know, it's still very much present. I know some people don't like, aren't comfortable with that, but the reality is it's still there. But the biggest thing for me is definitely when people say that we're difficult to reach and we're really, really not. That, that is, that really does need to be put to bed now.

Colin:
It also doesn't run in, in, they're, they're not, uh, they don't run exclusive bias. Bias isn't exclusive. They, sorry, sorry to steal a sporting term here. They, they, sorry about this, Alice, but they, they, they don't swim in their own lanes. You know, if we, if we talk about, uh, a bias against, against class accents, say a Midlands accent up against, you know, quote, unquote, the Queen's English. If we talk about, of course, in my opinion, the biggest one of all that helps solve so many problems is the gender inequality. Then they don't swim in the same lane, they all converse in there. Um, it's, it's always good to have a progressive, open conversation about it.

Lisa, tell me about your heroes, because even though you threw me a curveball with Oprah there, your heroes are much more. They haven't won any Olympic medals, they're within your world - science, entrepreneurs and, and managers of day nursery. So tell me a little bit about, uh, the women you want to shine a light on.

Lisa:
So, I mean, the first one has to be my mother, um, my mother is just like the most incredible person.

Like I say, when we lived in New York, my mum faced a hell of a lot of racism, um, but she would still pick herself up every day, dust herself off and get up and put herself out there and I really, really admire her for that. You know, she came here as part of the Windrush generation. They settled in Yorkshire and I remember her telling me stories of, they had to be escorted to school because the neighbors would attack them and racially abuse them. So she's been through a hell of a lot and despite all that, she's managed to raise two children successfully. So, she is my number one. Um, my sister is also, uh, somebody that I really, and obviously I know she's my sister, but she's somebody that I really admire because Louise is a scientist and obviously there aren't many, you know, you don't see many Black female scientists, not, it's not a, it's not an everyday occurrence and she has really fought hard to not only occupy that space, but she now volunteers with various organizations to work, to help, um, women and young girls, especially of colour get into more STEM roles, which I think is just absolutely fantastic.

Um, another heroine of mine is, um, a longtime friend and mentor, Dr. Marilyn Comrie and Marilyn is just the most incredible woman and I've known her for around 15 years and pretty much from the day I met her, she has really supported me. Um, and she's just incredible. She's does so much in our region and she received an OBE because of all of the incredible work that she does and she really does kind of really push and champion the Black community, which is just incredible. Um, I have two other women. There's another lady who is also one of the co-founders of BURN, a lady called Dr. Elsa Zekeng who is also a scientist like my sister, but she's just, she's just doing some fantastic things. I think one of the things I really, I really admire about Elsa is she is the trustee um, for a charity called SmartWorks, SmartWorks Greater Manchester and they are a charity that are empowering and supporting women into gaining employment, which I think is just a wonderful thing. Another person I really admire and want to talk about is Liz Pemberton, I think she's absolutely amazing. The work she's doing in terms of early years, I think is incredible.

Certainly something that didn't exist when I was young, or when my sister was young, and I can remember having certain experiences when I was very young and in those early years. Um, so for me, I think this kind of work is so, so important. So yeah, I do have "famous" women that I admire, but I like to, I prefer to shine a light on these women because these women are probably lesser known, they aren't definitely lesser known than the Oprah's of the world, but they're really doing some incredible work.

Colin:
Well Lisa, I'm loving chatting to you.